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June 5, 2018 Haze Categories: General News. 36 Comments on On the War Path

There have been a few things going on recently, but not had much time to post about them.

The most interesting thing is probably the discovery of an actual original title for the floppy disk based Magnet System arcade hardware rather than the unlicensed conversions of existing games that we’d seen previously.

The game in question is a vertical shmup called War Mission


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We’re quite lucky with this one as the disk was showing signs of failure, however the game only uses the first 24 or so tracks on the disk and only loads once on startup, unlike the other Magnet games which have pauses for loading between each scene. Later tracks, which do contain data, but presumably leftovers from whatever was on the disk before or another game, did not read consistently even when the original drive was used, but for the area used by the game the same reads were reproduced every time so those should be good at least.

It’s not a great game, hitbox is far too big meaning collisions usually feel unfair, and there’s very little content often just the same enemies reused with palette swaps (the video covers it all)

There are also some design issues like the 3 star powerup actually making the game more difficult as you can only have one set of bullets onscreen at once meaning you’re often left unable to take out enemies at close range if you’ve already fired off your shots. There are also plenty of places where enemy bullets spawn from nothing, which again just seems to be a design issue rather than an issue with the emulation or disk image, probably to keep you on your toes.

Unfortunately as with all the Magnet system games there is no way to reset the high score table to defaults, so the scores on the disk are the ones from people playing the game back in the day, and we have no idea what the factory defaults would have been, as a result the score table we have seems to be pretty much maxed out by a handful of players who must have played the game extensively back in the day. The chances of finding an untouched factory disk of these things is practically zero (it’s a miracle even this one showed up) so we’re probably just going to have to live with that.

Also, don’t bother trying to contact me at MameWorld, my account has been banned by Smitdogg, head of The Dumping Union because he took personal offense at me passing along some criticism over the quality of another dump (Tom Tom Magic, a Korean pinball game which had not been dumped correctly) Personally I find this behavior worrying and advise people take caution when donating to The Dumping Union as it seems they now think they’re above criticism and are quite happy to shoot the messenger as it were, My contact was only concerned with the quality of their output, including documentation provided, especially when dealing with such a rare PCB.

All that said, I’ll be away for the next week because I’m going to be in a field for Download Festival and staying with some friends.

36 Comments

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Thank you for your post. I enjoyed reading it. I hope you help emulate ‘El tiempo del fin.’

Nice write up !
Personally I wish that there would be 3 people with no connection to you or Smitdogg, were as if a person decides that someone has said something they don’t like on MameWorld then the person could ask for something to be done about it. Then then 3 people with no connections to the 2 persons involved could then decide what happens. I don’t know the process on MameWorld but I do think people should know what has happened with you as you do quite a lot for the cause. Thanks

Just from Smitdogg’s post on the Mameworld forums it seems clear that you’re absolutely right and that he’s acting like a pussy that can’t take any criticism at all. He’s obviously responding with kneejerk emotion rather than doing what would be in the best interests of the emulation community as a whole, which is to listen to and address your criticism constructively, so dumps might get done better in future.

Have fun at the festival and snag some free Zippo lighters :)

Have fun at the festival and bring back some Zippo lighters :)

To whom should we donate, if not Shitlogg?

thank you for everything you do, while many people watch
me for example, i’ve been lurking the mameworld news forum for years now and seeing behavior lessons from the likes of mooglyguy and smitdogg really is amusing.

looks like we need a new mame world because Smit is nut legit nuts

Have fun! Did you bring back any free Zippo lighters?

Banned from MW?
That must be a first for somebody.
:D :D :D

Dear Haze,

Mame Devs contribute their valuable time and expertise and often their own money to further the MAME project. They do this both for their own reasons – INTRINSIC VALUES; and for the benefit of the project or for and the enjoyment of others and the MAME Team as a whole – EXTRINSIC VALUES.

I see you trolling away from under your insignificant little bridge with your feeble little arguments about why these MAME Devs, Dumpers, and Donators – people who already give away much of their valuable time and expertise as a donation to the project as a whole, are either purposefully trying to undermine you and your enjoyment by withholding new releases – or should do more for you as you have the loudest voice. You being the hungry, ungrateful troll child under the bridge by attacking these MAME Devs, Dumpers, and donators. You are the least talented and the worst of all MAME Devs. Me and Guru both hate you! We always have and always will!

Others who already do so much for the project may have their own reasons, or reasons that you do not understand not to do something at this immediate point in time.

To quantify, something that you Haze the troll are demanding right now is for the Donators not to donate to the DU or my personal buddy Guru. I seem to remember something about Tom Tom Magic having unknown hardware and as being unmameable from a previous discussion.

Anyway, if I put $6000 of my own money towards buying a rare and undumped game like Tom Tom Magic with bad roms I might well wish for some other rookie MAME fan to contribute to the purchase price.

I see you have squirmed out of the donation option in your second letter. Your excuse being your seemingly poor current and future opinion prospects which are probably related to your poor attitude towards others working within a group of MAME Devs, Dumpers, and Donators. Even Guru will prove you wrong! You wrongfully accused my friend Guru for having bad dumps and you blamed him for refusing to redump them. Now Guru will never send you any of his dumps!

Before you aim your pointy stick in my direction I feel that I have a right to speak on this topic as I have spent between $10,000 to $25,000 on buying PCB’s, artwork, control panels and other assorted stuff to contribute to the project and made sure none are defective. (I don’t keep a tally and don’t wish to.) Example – The Japanese version of Space Intruder cost me $1,000 Australian to buy.

I myself have some rare artwork that I am holding onto ATM. As it is large and I don’t have the equipment to scan it / photograph it and put it into MAME it is not in MAME yet.

Never got round to going to Download, a lot of my friends have though and loved it. Have fun!

I agree outright banning you is extremely childish. I got the impression people were more upset with your tone, than with the fact that you were pointing out a bad dump though. Then again I didn’t see the original message so I’m just going by people’s reactions.
I appreciate all you’ve been doing for emulation snd preservation. Thanks, Haze!

Wow that’s a wall of text from you Tingoes, simply over me forwarding Smitdogg information on a bad dump, which I’d already reworded as to be less offensive (the original message I recieved certainly was derogatory towards the work of the DU, I reworded it to at least make it sound like the usual quality was higher)

As for defending Guru, maybe he’s your friend, but he’s blacklisted by a lot of people at this point, and I’m not the only one who has had issue with him refusing to redump things and the dev team were constantly getting complaints about him ripping people off etc. to the point the chain of trust broke down completely. There are PCBs we’ve ended up repurchasing and dumping to correct errors in dumps he did, but for whatever reason was unwilling to redump. I don’t really care if he doesn’t want to send me dumps to work with, that’s just childish, but at the same time, I have no interest in working with his dumps because if I can’t question their integrity / correctness without backlash it isn’t a workable process.

Yes, you’ve put money into things, I’ve put 20 years of my time into things. If you look at a large number of emulation projects today people are starting to charge for the coding time which case of some of the projects over $10k a month, for a single developer. If you start applying that logic to MAME, and the people that have worked on MAME then you’re talking silly money in time contributions. The attitude that says people can only have an opinion if they’ve contributed money is absolutely ridiculous, and even then, in this case ensuring that dumps are good etc. is protecting the interests of the people who have donated, unless they’d rather see the PCBs sold off, and the incomplete dumps / bad dumps not discovered until later, at which point the PCBs have to be repurchased for twice the original cost or more. Another reason people fell out with Guru is because he started putting things on FOR SALE lists that the devs hadn’t finished with, seemingly as an attempt to time pressure them into doing things when all that means is that you’re going to have to donate again for the same PCB in the future.

I honestly don’t care if you hate me, or if anybody else hates me, I’ll continue to do what is needed for the MAME to improve. I’ll continue to give an honest opinion on matters. I can be sad if opportunities were missed, that’s me being me. Even when servers for modern games get closed down I feel, as a digital preservationist, that we failing. There are vast amount of software being lost all the time, user content being lost all the time. What you’re doing is a drop in the ocean, what I’m doing is the same, but at least it’s something.

As for Tom Tom Magic it’s a straight clone of nmk16.cpp hardware but with a modified sound system (heck the gfx chip on it might even be a genuine NMK custom with the label removed) There’s nothing unemulatable about it, I instantly recognized the hardware type within about 5 minutes of poking around as it’s something I’ve dealt with before. There’s probably an undumped gambling version of it, or a gambling game based on the same codebase, but again, nothing fancy about that, hardware is incredibly generic.

As for Download, didn’t snag any free Zippos, but had a good time, met some new people even if one of them decided to burn down his own tent on the 3rd day and he missed the rest after being sent home. Wouldn’t be Download without some random thing happening.

Thought Sunday was going to end up a downer since Manson was absolute shit (and some of those around me were booing him off stage) but then Ozzy surprised me, wasn’t impressed by Sabbath 2 years ago but he hit out of the park this year.

Didn’t get to see as many of the smaller bands this year as previously, but not really complaining as the likes of Body Count (Ice-T’s band) and Asking Alexandria were worth sticking around the bigger stages for.

Also, as for where to donate I simply said take caution, my priority is putting the interests of the people donating first.

Generally TDU / Smit have been ok, but more recently there seem to be problems brewing. As long as poeple are happy to donate to somebody who might snap and cut off people simply explaining that dumps are bad then continue. The preservationist in me just finds this recent turn of events to be concerning and the continued overreactions moreso.

fwiw this is the chain of email.
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/pics2018/smit.png

If people think I was being unreasonable, then fair enough, personally I feel I was just explaining a situation and passing on a complaint, and trying to be polite about it.

Looking at that e-mail chain, IMHO if you had stopped at the first e-mail nothing bad would have happened. And it’s not like the second one adds anything useful. Every info needed for the redump was already in the first.
Smitdogg could have IMHO counted up to ten before answering so aggressively, but I can see why he’d get upset.
Anyway, I hope you two can mend your relationship for the good of MAME.

The first email was rushed and felt blunt and badly explained / worded to me, that’s why I followed it up with an exact explanation of the situation to show how things could have gone badly wrong if a third party hadn’t been kindly checking over things (I could easily have just continued to think it was different bg hardware, and the PCB could have been sold without getting a good dump)

This kind of thing is important, very important and was worth the email. I don’t really care what Smit thinks, I’ll continue to work with people who want to work with me.

In general tho I read most short things as being more blunt and more aggressive, eg. most of twitter seems cold and unfriendly. The follow up email was actually meant to be warmer, with a better explanation, also expressing that I don’t think the majority of the DU output is as bad as that was despite the worrying situation that meant without said third party intervention things could have gone horribly wrong. I have the right to be concerned in such cases.

You’re never going to listen to anybody about how you talk to people. You just act like it can’t possibly be a problem with you, mixed with the complaints just sort of going over your head.

If you agree not to message me anymore anywhere I’m ok with unbanning you but I’m definitely not going to listen to your shit. And if you can let me know who sent you that message I’ll be sure to never talk to them either as they can eat shit and nothing else.

People on MW donate, they announce new dump games and a few they saveguard.

If you don’t want me to message you then I won’t message you, I can simply mark bad dumps in the source and hope they get noticed.

I still think it’s all an overreaction tho; looking at the public image that was provided the chip labels for a number of the chips aren’t readable, and if you compare them even to the pictures Stefan did many years ago ( http://arcade.ym2149.com ) they did leave something to be desired. With that in mind I can still sympathize with the complaint from somebody wanting to double check such things.

It’s actually surprising how few good quality pictures of arcade PCBs are out there, even for popular games sometimes there’s nothing where you can really read any level of detail which with the recent work being done on MAME (to add actual device emulations in many drivers) is important. In many cases game behavior alone can’t tell you the exact component used. I was looking for high quality images of the various games using c-chips for example, and some other PCBs with unknown MCUs in order to help Caps0ff and it was surprisingly difficult.

I don’t think having me banned is especially productive tho, unless the forum now prevents people from PMing a banned user / alerts them to the fact that the user won’t be able to see the message. That’s why I highlighted that I was banned, because I can’t account the the avenues with which people are going to try contacting me.

I have one advise for Mame fans, just visit the websites, watch, look and don’t speak. People tolerance of today is dead. Thanks haze your hard work made us happy to enjoy the games. Can’t wait for your next project specially arcade games 😉

your one to talk smit your rants in the war room are to the point where no one listens because you don’t listen

Nathan, you’re the troll that should not be here and never listen to you. You not only dis Smitty, you also dis my buddy Guru. I only donate to my buddy Guru when it comes to dumping. If you do not donate funds or pcb boards towards mame, Guru will happy to tell you to fuck off Nathan.

Again, your choice.

It had got to the stage with Guru where the team were getting daily complaints about him ripping people off etc. There were people withholding things from Mamedev due to the association with Guru, be it dumps or code contributions. When that starts to happen the team has no choice but to act and distance themselves from him.

After his access to Github was restricted he threw a fit and started withholding things from the dev team even if all that was being done was putting it inline with other developers who weren’t involved with the coding side of MAME. It wasn’t my choice to remove him / cut his access, but it’s quite obvious why it happened.

If he’s your buddy, and you want to donate to him, sure, go ahead, but even with Smit’s current behavior I’d consider Smit to be by far the least likely to mess people around. It would be much better if they could find a way to work together.

Unfortunately there are similar patterns of behavior from both of them in terms of overhyping things to a point I’d consider to be dishonest.

Again tho, you’re showing this “your opinion only counts if you donate funds or PCBs” attitude tho, which is completely wrong. Anybody can contribute those things and those things alone won’t get you anywhere. I think hard work gives you more of a right to an opinion than throwing money at something, especially if you’ve got plenty of money already. Same reason I think it’s ridiculous people look up to celebrities donating what is pocket change for them to charities as if they’ve done something huge and should be worshiped for it when in reality somebody barely able to pay their bills working in a charity shop at weekends is making a much greater sacrifice because it’s actually a struggle for them to be doing it.

MW has become an unfriendly place over the years :(
Last time I dared to ask a question in a polite way, I’ve been insulted for no reason and the supposed “Moderator” (Hi SM) did not lift a finger. So, the best thing to do is to follow Giant’s advice: Watch, read and don’t say a damn word.

Hello, first I would like to say that I accompany and admire your work focused on emulation of games. My name is Cristiano and I have a gaming company Slots and Pokers in Brazil and I have some old poker cards that are no longer manufactured and I would like to preserve these games by emulating them, I wonder if you do this kind of work as a freelance and if positive discuss possibilities and prices of work.
My WhatsApp: +55 (011) 94730-1339
Email: canilbabypet@hotmail.com

You should contact the team using the form on
http://mamedev.org/contact.html

as long as you can dump the ROMs etc. it is likely somebody will take a look at the emulation as long as it’s within the realm of things MAME emulates at the moment, otherwise it might have to wait.

MAME is a project worked on by volunteers, so there’s no ‘price of work’ or anything like that.

Ha ha ha ha!

Mame devs are the rudest, most self-important pricks around, they really are. They’re always looking to take offense and get their panties in a wedge, and if you don’t comply to their requests they pull out the poor “I contributed money” Wah wah wah. Were they forced to do so? Maybe people would contribute more if those working Mame weren’t such assholes! They really are the most miserable, entitled, people – absolutely impossible to get on with, let alone like.

Do MAME devs have all the joy sucked out of them as soon as the sign up? They’re a miserable stain on Mame, which is itself a wonderful endeavor. How such a great cause begat such tyrants I’ll never know – it’s one of the great mysteries. It’s just a shame the people involved hate anyone who uses their software, let alone have an unsanctioned opinion of their own. You really couldn’t make it up. ha ha ha ha!

your so lame you can’t use your real handle gtfo

You either come from some strange planet or you’ve been watching some sort of fake holodeck fantasy.

Either way, I won’t put too much stock into someone saying Ha ha ha ha!

You don’t think I’m going to bicker on here do you? I have dog in the fight regarding Haze, and I really could not care less what you think of me as a person, since you know nothing about me, and hell – this is the Internet.

When I read the latest nonsense with Haze (whom I don’t know), then I literally had a laughing fit. Not because he’s had a beef with Mame Dev, but because it’s simply a rerun of things I’ve seen in the past, and it reminded me an old dog can’t learn new tricks. So yeah, I wrote “ha ha ha”, which is desperation to be dismissive, is apparently enough for someone to not “put stock” in what I’ve written. Whatever.

Trust me, if you ever has dialog with Mame developers, then eventually you’ll end up at the same point. I stand by every word I wrote earlier, because they’re an opinion based on experience. Mame Dev are hateful, nasty, self-centered pricks. It’s that simple. Somehow they have turned something they clearly loved, into a fortress where they pour hot oil on anyone who comes knock on the door. They have the manners of psychotic. They are very, very, unpleasant to have dealings with. And easy example would be to refer to just about any post by someone names “Mooglyguy”. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he does his dev work from a padded cell. He hates just about everyone, and everything thing. LOL

Look, it’s very simple. There are people who love to preserve these old games and systems. It’s a wonderful endeavor. A lot of people have put their heart and soul into it, and they are to be commended. That said, time has passed and they really don’t give a f*** about people who use their work. Actually, they seem to think the users are ants to be stomped for fun. They’ll never miss a beat if it means they can be rude, condescending, and just plain asshats.

Fine. They don’t care. It goes both ways. Do i care about preserving old games and systems? You betcha. Would I donate to DU? No. Never. I wouldn’t put money into something Mame Dev s were going to get fun out of even if the return was X2. When you seen that much hating go on to the community – the community that apprently should be bringing gold nuggets in praise of the high lords of Mame Dev – then a part of that community is just going to say, no mas. And yes, I know someone like B2K24 doesn’t care. That Mame Dev doesn’t care, blah blah blah. At the end of the day you’ve really got to laugh, and I do. It’s only a matter of time before there’s another fight between a Mame Dev and someone else. happens all the time. Yeah, that’s hilarious.

ps: Real handle? I’ve never posted here before, this is the handle I picked, I’m sure you’ll get over it.

The Dumping Union isn’t Mamedev, it’s a separate entity.

Fair enough, Haze. I still stand by my comment, nothing turns you off getting involved in the project, at whatever level, than reading Mame Dev’s belittle, put down, and attack those at the user end. The tone of the project is such a contrast – from the fantastic and righteous achievement and core goal, to the people doing it being so damn hateful and unapproachable. Very very strange.

I get no pleasure from airing my opinion on these guys, I really don’t. But I read of your recent experience and it just seemed par for the course. It resonated. This isn’t an aberration, it’s business as usual. It’s a shame, but that’s the way it is. Bar a small number of people who kiss Mame Dev’s ass at every opportunity, I’m sure your experience, mine, and that of others, resonates for others too.

I do find it frustrating, especially as in the end both myself and the people I’m working with / people who contact me are only looking to make sure things are done to a high / correct standard when it comes to time critical tasks (which dumping things from a PCB often as, because people don’t hold on to them forever)

Even with another recent dump, the Donkey Kong multi-game, I had a request to look at it 2 weeks after it was dumped and caught what should have been a really obvious error (binary file had been sent using an email client that treated it as Ascii and therefore was entirely corrupt and unusable as all 0x0d bytes get stripped out and the files end up far too short) That resonates with me in a bad way too because I have something like 5GB of various fruit machine ROMs that I really can’t add because they were corrupted at some point in the same way (although in that case from an unknown source) and in many cases they’re the only times anybody has dumped the large flash ROMs etc. from them, and it’s kinda unlikely a lot of them will be seen again. Mistakes like that really shouldn’t be happening, or should be caught immediately. Since I’m not even allowed to contact Smitdogg anymore I had to report that issue with the Donkey Kong dump through a third party.

The software side of things is a bit different, there’s very little of it that is time critical, coding mistakes or sub-optimal code can be fixed later etc. but when working with the hardware it’s vital to get things right.

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